tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4688468174751326435.post8671440174035715256..comments2024-03-20T03:14:10.938-04:00Comments on diceRolla: Hidden Cost of TLoS?Papa JJhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/07443485240104662387noreply@blogger.comBlogger9125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4688468174751326435.post-28971390661494019392011-07-30T16:28:04.105-04:002011-07-30T16:28:04.105-04:00To be honest, I wouldn't consider GW standards...To be honest, I wouldn't consider GW standards for gaming and models so perfectly balanced in a way which an artistic conversion, not done for the express purpose of getting an unfair advantage, would negate.José Fabiánhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13201464342158001532noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4688468174751326435.post-74852066863647976962010-05-05T22:02:39.588-04:002010-05-05T22:02:39.588-04:00Thank you, Doc! I too have really appreciated ever...Thank you, Doc! I too have really appreciated everyone's contributions. Not knowing the rules is a tough one and something which unfortunately is going to be hard to avoid, especially at events on the scale of Adepticon. As an observer of the tournaments I was impressed with how readily available judges seemed to be for such rulings, a testament to the number of volunteer staff that were running the con. Excellent reminder about getting approval first, too. Thanks!Papa JJhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07443485240104662387noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4688468174751326435.post-21626129786960416422010-05-05T08:49:08.777-04:002010-05-05T08:49:08.777-04:00Thanks for posting this, the comments have also be...Thanks for posting this, the comments have also been great. <br />One thing that I'd like to add on this topic is that sometimes people just don't read the rules. <br />Case: Adepticon. While you were taking pictures of the Squat army with 'smaller' than 'typical' Chimeras, my team was engaged in a debate over simple rules. We were using the approved for the tournament Lucius Drop Pod rules. If you don't know, it carries one dreadnought that is allowed to charge out of the DP the turn it arrives. <br />I was amazed at the number of people who wanted to put up an argument when the rules were clearly marked on the main tournament page. In each case, we just got a judge over and the situation was resolved quickly (always in our favor). <br /><br />In the case of modeling for a tournament- get approval before the first game or at least set on a convention of how your converted model will play. Once you have the judge on your side, have fun playing the game!<br /><br />And remember, if my model can see you- you can see me back.DrGabehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03533061717625520591noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4688468174751326435.post-88374724826024373692010-05-03T22:46:08.666-04:002010-05-03T22:46:08.666-04:00That's really interesting that you mention tha...That's really interesting that you mention that particular example, Hexeter. I've been thinking about making a count-as Mephiston/Librarian but so it looks like my character is floating above the ground a bit. Just earlier today I thought about marking in someway places on my model where the original guy's eyes would have been, as well as the top of his head just to simplify things. Thank you for letting me know about your experience and I appreciate the insight. I hadn't thought of the laser pointer but that would really make it easy if I can provide spots to aim for... thanks!Papa JJhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07443485240104662387noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4688468174751326435.post-62968362156444311342010-05-03T22:02:52.231-04:002010-05-03T22:02:52.231-04:00'Core' Rules debates are always a common d...'Core' Rules debates are always a common discussion among my circle of friends, things like TLoS and Modeling for Advantage are always hotly debated but as much as some people find it to be a tired subject it NEEDS to be talked about. Every time I get into a new debate about Modeling for Advantage I find myself inevitably coming out on a different side each time.<br /><br />As Hobbyists we have every right to 'Konvert' our models to our liking because they are just that 'Our' Models. <br /><br />One such debate I had recently ended with an interesting compromise for both sides. The Konverting player was allowed to use his model (a Deff Dread that was approx 2" taller than standard) but both players agreed to pick a spot on the models 'torso' that represented it's True Sight Line. When it's LoS came into question they used a laser pointer set closely on the Target Model and aimed for the point they had picked out on the Deff Dread. As long as the laser could find that agreed on point it was a legal shot.Hexeterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17733225218907115111noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4688468174751326435.post-13462394420075947442010-05-03T21:52:13.369-04:002010-05-03T21:52:13.369-04:00Thanks, Max! I agree that the safest solution is t...Thanks, Max! I agree that the safest solution is to just play with like-minded people and have fun, which is fortunately the most common gaming situation for me. As for using the appropriately size bases, I agree that is an excellent foundation for hopefully avoiding unnecessary disputes. Thank you again for taking the time to let me know your thoughts on this.Papa JJhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07443485240104662387noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4688468174751326435.post-62304813129591655722010-05-03T15:45:00.866-04:002010-05-03T15:45:00.866-04:00Nice article. I'm not enough of a veteran to r...Nice article. I'm not enough of a veteran to remember 4th ed debates on the subject but I think that your viewpoint (hah!) has merit. I know from reading a lot of the blogs around that a lot of scratch builders will try to make sure that their models are the correct base size for what they are going for to make sure these questions don't get out of hand.<br /><br />Probably the best defense is simply to have understanding opponents and play in a relatively non-competitive setting. As long as no one cares, what's the point in arguing?Maxhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12478821172146809894noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4688468174751326435.post-73971000535116796322010-05-03T08:42:57.356-04:002010-05-03T08:42:57.356-04:00Thanks, I really appreciate hearing from on you on...Thanks, I really appreciate hearing from on you on this. I can see how, especially with my lead-in illustration, this could have been misleading. Your expectation of a discussion about trenches and TLoS makes sense and I imagine could have been a more interesting article. Sorry if you feel tricked, but I really am grateful that you took the time to read it and give me your feedback.<br /><br />The central question I'm trying to answer is why these arguments over modeling for advantage have become, in my experience of them, so much more common and prominent since 40k's shift from 4th to 5th edition. My idea is that in trying to further eliminate a level of abstraction from the game, TLoS has placed such a great emphasis now on the actual models used that people are more primed than ever before to look for abuses. Players are thus more likely to detect and complain about these modeling choices that, if unfairly advantageous, are the unintended results of people just trying to make a cool model. I believe that in many cases the disputed conversions, while making things different, do not really offer a clear advantage but instead are just a change making the unit neither better nor worse, just different. Unless something is an obvious attempt to be abusive, I'd like to encourage people to enjoy the game and appreciate the work that goes into such personalization of miniatures. It very well could be that TLoS is not to blame for this but instead is due to some other agent at work, or perhaps even that this is nothing different from before and that I'm just more aware now of these disputes.<br /><br />I agree wholeheartedly about how scratch builders should not be intimidated by fear of the rules lawyers. If you've got a cool idea for a conversion, go for it! This game thrives when people are excited and passionate about it... censoring or limiting one's creative side will not benefit anyone in the long run. Ultimately it should be about one's fun and enjoyment of the game, and my experience has been that such unique reinterpretations of models adds to the fun rather than detract. Again I appreciate you letting me know your thoughts on this subject, I am very grateful. Thanks!Papa JJhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07443485240104662387noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4688468174751326435.post-60980893905203651512010-05-02T23:59:16.733-04:002010-05-02T23:59:16.733-04:00I found this article to be more focused on buildin...I found this article to be more focused on building models to gain unfair advantages then TLoS. I was expecting something along the lines of models shooting out of trenches during tench warfare no actually being allowed to shoot because of the TLoS rule, which would be lame in that case. However, you did raise some very legitimate concerns that we should all think of. <br />I honestly don't think that scratch builders should let the naggers and rule lawyers scare them away from building a model according to their artistic interpretation. In fact, I encourage that they do; especially if a model has yet to be officially released for a unit choice.<br />You summed it up best with your quote of Supreme Court Justice Stewart Potter. It may be hard to define who's modeling for an unfair advantage or artistic interpretation, but it should be relatively easy to spot out when we see it.Schnitzelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06155166599103912139noreply@blogger.com